They are both very unpleasant governments
Jan. 3rd, 2013 11:06 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lliiraThis poem has been going through my head for a very long time: ever since I learned what the Republic really is in SW:TOR. (Hint: it starts with "hugely genocidal" and doesn't get better from there.) For Walrus read: Republic. For Carpenter read: Empire.
'The sun was shining on the sea,
Shining with all his might:
He did his very best to make
The billows smooth and bright—
And this was odd, because it was
The middle of the night.
The moon was shining sulkily,
Because she thought the sun
Had got no business to be there
After the day was done—
"It's very rude of him," she said,
"To come and spoil the fun!"
The sea was wet as wet could be,
The sands were dry as dry.
You could not see a cloud, because
No cloud was in the sky:
No birds were flying over head—
There were no birds to fly.
The Walrus and the Carpenter
Were walking close at hand;
They wept like anything to see
Such quantities of sand:
"If this were only cleared away,"
They said, "it WOULD be grand!"
"If seven maids with seven mops
Swept it for half a year,
Do you suppose," the Walrus said,
"That they could get it clear?"
"I doubt it," said the Carpenter,
And shed a bitter tear.
"O Oysters, come and walk with us!"
The Walrus did beseech.
"A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk,
Along the briny beach:
We cannot do with more than four,
To give a hand to each."
The eldest Oyster looked at him.
But never a word he said:
The eldest Oyster winked his eye,
And shook his heavy head—
Meaning to say he did not choose
To leave the oyster-bed.
But four young oysters hurried up,
All eager for the treat:
Their coats were brushed, their faces washed,
Their shoes were clean and neat—
And this was odd, because, you know,
They hadn't any feet.
Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more—
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore.
The Walrus and the Carpenter
Walked on a mile or so,
And then they rested on a rock
Conveniently low:
And all the little Oysters stood
And waited in a row.
"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
Of cabbages—and kings—
And why the sea is boiling hot—
And whether pigs have wings."
"But wait a bit," the Oysters cried,
"Before we have our chat;
For some of us are out of breath,
And all of us are fat!"
"No hurry!" said the Carpenter.
They thanked him much for that.
"A loaf of bread," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
Pepper and vinegar besides
Are very good indeed—
Now if you're ready Oysters dear,
We can begin to feed."
"But not on us!" the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue,
"After such kindness, that would be
A dismal thing to do!"
"The night is fine," the Walrus said
"Do you admire the view?
"It was so kind of you to come!
And you are very nice!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Cut us another slice:
I wish you were not quite so deaf—
I've had to ask you twice!"
"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To play them such a trick,
After we've brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"The butter's spread too thick!"
"I weep for you," the Walrus said.
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size.
Holding his pocket handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.
"O Oysters," said the Carpenter.
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?"
But answer came there none—
And that was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.'
'I like the Walrus best,' said Alice: 'because you see he was a LITTLE sorry for the poor oysters.'
'He ate more than the Carpenter, though,' said Tweedledee. 'You see he held his handkerchief in front, so that the Carpenter couldn't count how many he took: contrariwise.'
'That was mean!' Alice said indignantly. 'Then I like the Carpenter best—if he didn't eat so many as the Walrus.'
'But he ate as many as he could get,' said Tweedledum.
This was a puzzler. After a pause, Alice began, 'Well! They were BOTH very unpleasant characters—'
'The sun was shining on the sea,
Shining with all his might:
He did his very best to make
The billows smooth and bright—
And this was odd, because it was
The middle of the night.
The moon was shining sulkily,
Because she thought the sun
Had got no business to be there
After the day was done—
"It's very rude of him," she said,
"To come and spoil the fun!"
The sea was wet as wet could be,
The sands were dry as dry.
You could not see a cloud, because
No cloud was in the sky:
No birds were flying over head—
There were no birds to fly.
The Walrus and the Carpenter
Were walking close at hand;
They wept like anything to see
Such quantities of sand:
"If this were only cleared away,"
They said, "it WOULD be grand!"
"If seven maids with seven mops
Swept it for half a year,
Do you suppose," the Walrus said,
"That they could get it clear?"
"I doubt it," said the Carpenter,
And shed a bitter tear.
"O Oysters, come and walk with us!"
The Walrus did beseech.
"A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk,
Along the briny beach:
We cannot do with more than four,
To give a hand to each."
The eldest Oyster looked at him.
But never a word he said:
The eldest Oyster winked his eye,
And shook his heavy head—
Meaning to say he did not choose
To leave the oyster-bed.
But four young oysters hurried up,
All eager for the treat:
Their coats were brushed, their faces washed,
Their shoes were clean and neat—
And this was odd, because, you know,
They hadn't any feet.
Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more—
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore.
The Walrus and the Carpenter
Walked on a mile or so,
And then they rested on a rock
Conveniently low:
And all the little Oysters stood
And waited in a row.
"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
Of cabbages—and kings—
And why the sea is boiling hot—
And whether pigs have wings."
"But wait a bit," the Oysters cried,
"Before we have our chat;
For some of us are out of breath,
And all of us are fat!"
"No hurry!" said the Carpenter.
They thanked him much for that.
"A loaf of bread," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
Pepper and vinegar besides
Are very good indeed—
Now if you're ready Oysters dear,
We can begin to feed."
"But not on us!" the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue,
"After such kindness, that would be
A dismal thing to do!"
"The night is fine," the Walrus said
"Do you admire the view?
"It was so kind of you to come!
And you are very nice!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Cut us another slice:
I wish you were not quite so deaf—
I've had to ask you twice!"
"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To play them such a trick,
After we've brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"The butter's spread too thick!"
"I weep for you," the Walrus said.
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size.
Holding his pocket handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.
"O Oysters," said the Carpenter.
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?"
But answer came there none—
And that was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.'
'I like the Walrus best,' said Alice: 'because you see he was a LITTLE sorry for the poor oysters.'
'He ate more than the Carpenter, though,' said Tweedledee. 'You see he held his handkerchief in front, so that the Carpenter couldn't count how many he took: contrariwise.'
'That was mean!' Alice said indignantly. 'Then I like the Carpenter best—if he didn't eat so many as the Walrus.'
'But he ate as many as he could get,' said Tweedledum.
This was a puzzler. After a pause, Alice began, 'Well! They were BOTH very unpleasant characters—'
no subject
Date: 2013-01-04 05:24 am (UTC)I don't mind that its a Black vs Black conflict, exactly, but it drives me up the wall that the writers assumed (or so it seems) that your characters would remain loyal to their factions or even become -more- loyal to their factions as the chapters progress. Especially as the factions look worse and worse as you go. There are moments when you can choose doing the right thing over what your faction wants (and moments when you pretty much commit treason) but they are too few and seem more frequent early on. If better motivation was provided for why you're still faction loyal or if you could subvert more missions, I'd be a lot happier. Hell, even if I got to snark, back talk, object, lecture, whatever the evil quest givers (both sides) more, I'd feel better about it - something, anything, to indicate that my characters aren't okay with working for evil people.
I mean, the Light Side/Dark Side choices imply an alignment choice, especially early on. I'd like to feel like I -can- play the alignments that Chapter One suggested I could all through the game. *sigh*
no subject
Date: 2013-01-04 09:28 pm (UTC)There are moments when you can choose doing the right thing over what your faction wants (and moments when you pretty much commit treason) but they are too few and seem more frequent early on.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand this? In everything I've seen, they're not few and they happen a whole lot throughout, particularly on the Imperial side and in the Smuggler quests. For instance, if you're a Sith, you can explicitly and repeatedly say "I am going to change the way the entire Empire operates." And there's no reason to doubt you can. Further, I think there's good reason for any Imperial character to be at least loyal-enough to the Empire to want to crush the Republic. The Republic wants to murder every last Imperial citizen: not just the Sith and the Moffs, but the slaves and the children too. The entire Republic citizenry certainly does not know about this, but a very large portion of the upper echelon of the Republic military does, and the Jedi Council likely does too -- and as a Sith, you meet a whole lot of Jedi who want to murder you for not following the Jedi code, no matter what how often you say "we do not need to fight". When you have so-called nice people who want to kill you on one side (protesting that they're doing it for the greater good, sometimes for your own good), and jerks who protect you and even obey you on the other side, you're gonna go with the jerks. (Can you tell I prefer the Empire? I prefer the Empire. They're honest.)
I'm fine with ignoring the little symbols next to the choices and just choosing what my character would. Sometimes that's the thing the character's player thinks is more-good. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes I can't decide and just go with what the character's romance interest wants. I don't particularly like alignments anyway -- people in the real world don't have them. The fact that every Bioware writer seems to have gotten a different note regarding light side/dark side can be sort of annoying, but I'm used to being sort-of-annoyed with something in Bioware games and just playing how I want anyway. I argued with their writers on the forums years ago; they're just people, they make mistakes, they have deadlines, and they fundamentally disagree with me on some things. (And at least one has changed -- I'm thinking of David Gaider, who appears to have come around to what I and others were arguing he should come around to when KotOR came out.)
Also, I think I know Bioware well enough by now to sense certain things about them when I play their games. Namely: many of the writers were impatient with the light side/dark side system, and at least some of the writers hate that following authority is usually considered "good" in that system. They complained before, re: D&D, about having to follow someone else's story and ideas of morality. I see the Dragon Age games as their answer to that. But with TOR, they're stuck; they have to at least nominally follow Lucas' extraordinarily silly and immature ideas of morality at least some of the time. But I don't have to go along with that :).
no subject
Date: 2013-01-05 01:52 am (UTC)Yeah, I think you're right about the class thing there. That tidbit hasn't really come up for my highest level characters (Agent and Smuggler) and does make a difference. A large one. I knew the Republic was massively not as advertised, but I don't recall anyone (except Corso) expressing that as a goal. Did I miss it or is it something one picks up from other classes?
As for Belsavis Republic side, yes, you get LS points for going against some of what's going on there, but your objections seem so...mild. I'd have paid good money for at least a 'kick them in the nuts' option in several of the dialogues. And the Smuggler quests there end with a LS/DS option that only makes sense if LS suddenly means Lawful Evil, which my Smuggler is not...on either count. (I do take the options that match the character's morality/personality, but I also boggle at what's being advertised as LS sometimes.)
I love Star Wars, but I've always been kinda down on Force Users - the Jedi have always come off as more Lawful Self-Righteous than good, and the prequel trilogy only made them look worse, and I was leary of what Sith would be like (I like playing good, as you can probably tell) - so my interest in playing Force Users has been a little lacking. At least I know Sith characters have admirable goals.
no subject
Date: 2013-01-05 02:48 am (UTC)The Foundry flashpoint.
"Emphasis: Ninety-seven point six percent effective genocide!"
no subject
Date: 2013-01-05 05:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-05 02:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-05 03:48 pm (UTC)It just seems like there's an abrupt characterization change after Chapter One - in the Empire side main quests - that your assumed loyalty goes up, your assumed dislike of aliens goes up, and the quests that let you chose good over orders drops to... I think there's all of -one- from the beginning of Chapter Two to well into Corellia. There are some minor do better than ordered options, but they seem much less dramatic. (And you're suddenly cut scene killing people, and getting dialogue wheels of no choice starting with Chapter Two.) Unless some of the flat out evil quests I refused on Taris had never mind, I'll be good options after you start doing them. Or all of the post Chapter One spare people/commit treason/disobey orders quests are in heroics or bonus series after Chapter One. (I know there are some in those in Chapter One, but there's also at least one per planet in the regular quests.)
If all of that is somehow predicated on your character knowing that the Republic wants them - and everyone else in the Empire dead - that knowledge shouldn't just be in a flashpoint.
no subject
Date: 2013-01-05 04:13 pm (UTC)My Sith Sith seems to mostly have the same dialogue options as humans, however. And he certainly never had to act like he was prejudiced against non-human non-Sith. Let's see, after Chapter One, so Taris (the only option you have to not fight the Republic Cathar--and Republic in general--is to decline the quests; you can't say it's great that the nekghouls are training as Jedi, but you can certainly recruit them rather than wiping them out, and everyone but the humorously vicious and incompetent Thana Vesh is pleased if you do), Quesh (...is it somehow bad to fight the Republic and Republic-aligned Hutts?), Hoth (again everything there is against the Republic, and unlike Taris it's "This is a Chiss world and the Republic is unwelcome," rather than, "That jawless idiot Malak decreed this world will become a ruin and so it must stay one!"), Belsavis (very morally awkward world...for the Republic. Marvelous for Imperials who care about morality at all), Voss (again, I'm not sure what you're talking about--yes, Darth Serevin isn't interested in the truth, but that doesn't mean you have to not be, and the Republic respects the Voss even less than Serevin does), and Corellia (which the Empire is trying to conquer, and, yes, if you take the non-class missions it assumes you are too). The difference is that starting somewhere in Chapter Two the Republic and the Empire are openly at war.
Is your objection that you can't act like the Republic isn't at war with you? Because as far as the non-class missions go that's all I can figure out for "choose good over orders." On Hoth if you rescue the Ortolan engineer from the Republic rather than choosing the "we just need the reactor, not you" option, the mission-giver's reaction is, "Oh good, I was hoping they'd stay on." Or that you have to deal with mission-givers who are open racists, even though you don't have to be one?
no subject
Date: 2013-01-05 07:58 pm (UTC)There are a few quests later on - I remember one on Belsavis - where the dialogue options were various flavors of "yes, lets manipulate these things to our ends" (paraphrase, obviously) which... um... why am I suddenly speciesist? (And it doesn't make sense as a class-flavoring, as the Agent never has to be speciesist in story. So it must be that I'm playing a human. Or someone misread a memo somewhere.)
Balmorra actually makes a great example planet for what I'm talking about, since the planet quests should be spoiler safe for everyone here. (I'll spoiler just in case, though.) Sure, you're trying to put down the Balmorran resistence, but you have the option to not report that there's a cave of weak Force sensitives (who would be slaughtered) so that they can go live out their lives in peace elsewhere (fairly certain that's treason - it's certainly massively disobeying orders, but it really has no relevance to the fighting), you have the option to rig grenades rather than coms (keeping casualties to the actual fighting forces, not spreading them to civilians as ordered) - which, granted, makes your character a bit of an idiot for not reporting the change of plan (you probably deserve to be flogged along with your co-conspirator for risking your own side's troops), and you can point out that maybe trying to win over Balmorran hearts and minds would be a good idea. A balancing act between agreeing (or at least not disagreeing with the Empire taking over Balmorra, while still having an interest in saving lives and not committing war crimes. This stance seems to...not quite vanish, but certainly become less of an option...as the Empire becomes more bloodthirsty, which is kinda odd.
I think I'd mentally lumped Hoth in with Chapter One (how, I don't know) when I was thinking about the characterization change, because, you're right, Hoth fits with Chapter One. Quesh mostly does (except for being rather more ruthless in cutscene with the Jedi working with the Hutts than you may be elsewhere). It's Taris - land of the rakghoul schmuckbait field* - that's most off in Chapter Two. The whole business with The Jedi training rakghouls is off - okay, obviously, you can't defect when offered, but howabout a "no, why don't you defect" option or a "why are you asking me this in front of Thana????" option. And the LS option goes rather dark.
I mean, if you're meant to know that the Republic wants to wipe the Empire out, it makes a bit more sense, but... the Agent class quests at least don't suggest that knowledge. It may seems less inconsistently written on a Sith. (Actually from what you've both said, it clearly does. After all, as Sith, you're aiming to remake the Empire however you wish - or so I gather.)
Of course, after Belasavis, your dedication to your side is pretty hard to understand on a Republic character, too. I just feel a bit hampered in playing good - regardless of faction. (Except in class quests. There good is no problem at all. ... Okay, a large part of my problem may be the title of the OP. It's hard not to feel that all good characters would be a bit "screw you all, you all suck!" by the end.)
One question re Voss: You say that the Republic is even less respectful of the Voss than Serevin... I... Did not get that impression. (Maybe I was distracted by wishing my Smuggler could have a one night stand with the Republic Ambassador. ^_^;;) The Ambassador seemed to like the Voss and to respect their decission to work on their own problem just fine. Is this another odd class/planet interaction (different dialogues on a Jedi, perhaps) or was I/my character really distracted by the hotness? *sheepish*
*Is it just me or does that planet make common sense go out the window on both sides? The Republic wanting to rebuild doesn't make that much sense (Wouldn't resources be better used elsewhere, especially with all the damage from the recent war? I know it's a PR stunt and all, but it seems a bit...unwise.) and it actually doesn't seem like a good planet for open warfare Empire side - send a few sabotures and let the planet do the rest, especially since the Empire doesn't want the planet.
no subject
Date: 2013-01-05 08:46 pm (UTC)That's very odd. More so that it's not the case for a Sith (race, not class).
(I usually have the option to agree with racist lines, but I always have the option to protest them.)
No, the ambassador is fine. And, if you're playing a Jedi, he and the Sith Lord who's been training the failed mystics in how to use the Force both poke at you a lot about the Jedi's contemptuous attitude toward the Voss. (I wonder how the whole thing plays out for a non-Jedi; it doesn't really make a lot of sense that a Republic soldier or privateer can verbally commit the Jedi to training the Voss.) When you confront the Sith Lord, he tells you the Sith are willing to train the Voss; one of the Voss students asks if they have an alternative. Your choices are to say "The Jedi are just waiting for you to ask" or, "That's not an option." The first choice is Light Side. The first choice is also a lie, and you get "What were you thinking? Now we're stuck training these Voss who don't believe in the Light Side and the Dark Side!" from the Jedi Council and, "Wow, I didn't think you were actually going to do that" from the ambassador if you choose it.
And yes, Taris seems to be entirely an ego thing for both sides. Both the Empire and the Republic are going by an utterly false narrative where Taris was once one of the greatest planets in the Republic and crushing it was a great Empire victory.
no subject
Date: 2013-01-06 01:24 am (UTC)The suddenly!Racist moments baffle me, too. I'm going to go with somebody misread a memo somewhere, because they don't make much sense otherwise.
no subject
Date: 2013-01-05 09:47 pm (UTC)The Republic is horrible to a Sith throughout the Sith's quests. Every time you meet a Jedi, it goes:
Sith: We don't have to fight, I just want to talk.
Jedi: DIE EVIL SITH OF EVIL
Sith: Wait, but I'm not evil, I just --
Jedi: YOU ARE SITH AND I AM JEDI THEREFORE I AM PERFECT AND YOU ARE THE EVILEST SO YOU DIE NOW
Sith: Would you shut up and listen to me?!
Jedi: DIIIIEEEEE!!!! *attacks*
My Sith Inquisitor in particular hated Jedi with a burning passion by the end of Alderaan, and Jedi = Republic, no matter how they fake it. Plus you're at war with the Republic. The Republic is shooting at you. And the Republic is doing some very terrible things. You don't learn about the terriblest outside the flashpoint, but you learn plenty to have plenty of reason to despise them for being violent hypocrites on a self-righteous crusade.
Then there's the Jedi code. Which I find disgusting. Peace is a lie, there is only passion. :D
I think Agents may just plain have to be evil to a certain extent. I don't blame the writers for assuming you're very loyal to the Empire as an Agent, or able to fake it very well. Why else would you be an Agent? I feel so far in many of my Agent quests that my choices are between Lawful Evil (light side) and Neutral Evil (dark side). But I am surprised they force you to be racist, because that's the opposite of both Sith classes (the Inquisitor explicitly fights against racism) and the Bounty Hunter.
I've never played an MMORPG in which you were allowed to be not-loyal to your faction except Everquest 2. There, you can switch, but then you have to be loyal to your new faction. There are some things computer and video RPGs must assume about your character for anything you do to make sense.
no subject
Date: 2013-01-05 10:23 pm (UTC)We may have different takes on what qualifies for different D&D moralites, too, since the Agent LS choices on Hutta do not strike me as either Lawful or Evil. (I would go with CG, myself.)
One on Dromund Kaas (in the slave revolt area) I'd qualify as LE-LN (LS) vs NE (DS) and the one in the Dark Temple is...odd (the NPC's dialogue volunteers that he turn himself in, but you don't say anything of the sort and without that "I'd rather turn myself in and be tortured than stay here" (which, again, you say nothing of the sort) I would assume you're letting the guy go free which amounts more to CG (LS) vs er... I don't know what the DS option is. (If your dialogue implied what the NPC says then yeah, that'd be more LE vs... ????)
And on Balmorra, again, all the LS choices are to try and preserve life as much as possible, which - to me - is somewhere on the Good spectrum. It's the disconnect for me between being allowed to be Good (or at least on the Gooder end of Neutral) in the Class quests while being much darker in the planet quests that boggles me. It's interesting that you see the Agent class as inherently evil. (I was expecting it to come off LN or LE when played LS but that wasn't at all how it read - to me).
And, no, I wouldn't expect anything but faction loyalty ordinarily in an MMO. But when you throw in morality, and something much more akin to RPing with the game, the whole thing gets really wonky.
Edit: It belatedly occurs to me that some definition of terms might be in order. I'm considering good to be: generally trying to do the best in one's circumstance, not hurting people if one doesn't have to (one could argue that a career in which one sometimes has to is inherently evil, of course), opting for reason over violence whenever possible, having compassion, sparing one's enemies if that's at all reasonable/possible, not being bloodthirsty or ruthless, and (to be more specific) generally trying to protect the citizenry of the Empire. I don't know that that's quite capital G Good, but it certainly doesn't seem like any flavor of evil.
It also occurs to me that I should clarify that I'm not at all puzzled as to why the Agent (or Sith Warrior, for that matter) would start out loyal to the Empire. It's that the Empire (like the Republic) behaves worse and worse which seems like it might make one question one's loyalty if one also believes one's self to be a good person. Just as one might expect a Republic character who believes themselves to be a good person would start to have serious doubts (at Belsavis, if not waaaaay before). I guess it's that - in some classes - you don't have the options to call people on things (or declare that you plan to fix the place) that you do on others. Which leaves your character in the strange position of stating extreme loyalty to a government that they should logically have some reservations about.
no subject
Date: 2013-01-06 10:58 pm (UTC)While other MMORPGs don't have a system of points for moral choices, they most definitely have morality embedded into their stories from the get-go. One small example: World of Warcraft's newest race is the Pandaren. A Pandaren gets to choose which faction to belong to.
Alliance faction: Path of the Tushui
"Discipline is not a war that is won. It is a battle, constantly fought." - Master Feng
The way of the Tushui is one of a principled life. Followers of this discipline believe there is a moral certainty to the world: one correct path of right and wrong.
These values are immutable, and must be preserved no matter what the cost, even if it means self-sacrifice, or painful losses in the pursuit of a higher ideal.
Horde faction: Path of the Huojin
"Always challenge. Always question. In the pursuit of a greater good, inaction is the only wrong." - Master Zurong
The path of the Huojin is marked by practical and decisive action. Followers of this discipline believe that morals and ideals are not absolute, but change with circumstances.
As such, a Huojin Master must remain flexible in his or her thinking, always evaluating the greater good.
(Blizzard has resorted to beating players over the head with the fact that the Horde is the more-good side and the Alliance is led by self-righteous jerks on a crusade. Plenty of people still won't get it, because the Alliance is led by humans and the Horde is led by orcs.)
no subject
Date: 2013-01-07 04:15 am (UTC)Perhaps if you're a Sith you can, but there are few times you can as an Agent. And that makes a bit of a difference on how it _feels_. (You're right about Republic characters being even more restrained from going WTF? though...)
Also, what class you play makes a huge difference in how the other faction treats you. You don't get the same hostility from the Republic, at all, on an Agent. (From the sound of it, it's -oddly- the only Imperial class that doesn't get the impression that the Republic wants everyone dead. Unless, of course, one runs the Foundry.)
You do make the Sith storylines sound all kinds of awesome, though! I like the idea of changing the Empire/galaxy for the better. The whole galaxy needs it, badly.
no subject
Date: 2013-01-07 04:54 am (UTC)If you're an Imperial Agent, you're a citizen of the Empire, a member of a bureaucracy, and...as a non-Force user in the Empire the most you can ever aspire to, as far as relations with Sith go, is that you'll one day be able to bully apprentices and hope they either die or forget it happened before they rise high enough to pay you back.
no subject
Date: 2013-01-04 09:33 pm (UTC)"I served in the Imperial military for years. Recognize my service and grant me trial by combat!"
"Sure." Dark Side.
"No, I'm just going to kill you." Dark Side.
"No, you'll rot in that cell." The cruelest of the three. Also Light Side.
"We don't have to fight. Just let me bury myself, and my unconscious student who cannot object to this plan because he's unconscious, alive."
"Okay." Light Side.
"Are you kidding? No!" Dark Side.
I get the impression you're mainly talking from an Imperial Agent standpoint. I can't speak to that much--my Imperial Agent is still on early Dromund Kaas--though if it's appropriate for the game to assume, "You must be loyal to the Empire or at least have the desire and ability to fake it incredibly well or you'd never have made it to the field" for any class, it's Imperial Agent. For a bounty hunter, you never have to be loyal to the Empire, though you do become extremely unwelcome in the Republic and thus have at least as much reason to be invested in the Empire's victory as a Jedi would have to be invested in the Republic's. And for a Sith, by the end of Chapter Three, you don't work for the Empire, the Empire works for you, and if the Imperials you deal with object to you ordering them to be unusually merciful, they can choke on it...sometimes literally.
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Date: 2013-01-05 01:31 am (UTC)I'd also say that being loyal to the Empire isn't necessarily the same as being loyal to the Sith, and that loyal or not, when you're taking orders from people who seem like they sit down and have a bowl of babies for breakfast it just feels like you should be able to... Okay, indicating your objections would probably be suicide, but still.... I don't know.
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Date: 2013-01-05 09:53 pm (UTC)I feel on my Agent, so far, that the light side/dark side options don't line up with good and evil at all. In fact, even before this conversation, I was thinking about how the Agent's choices are interesting, because the morality of most of them is quite murky. On Nar Shaddaa in particular, I felt the big end choice was between evil and evil, and I think the light side option may have been the more evil. (Kaliyo wanted to do it, for one thing.) I did it, but only because my Agent is very loyal to the Empire, not because she or I thought it was more good.
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Date: 2013-01-05 10:25 pm (UTC)More and more good options as you go along... I could see up and down by planet, but... On the other hand, it may be that I haven't played enough of Sith to feel that the Jedi are Evil as opposed to Self Righteous Jerks (which is different from Evil). If Jedi are Evil, then that does change things.
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Date: 2013-01-06 10:28 pm (UTC)Jedi are Self Righteous Jerks to the extent of Self-Righteously wanting to kill every force user who is not a Jedi and whom they cannot force to become a Jedi. (Not the Mystics, but they mistrust the Mystics and want nothing to do with them simply because the Mystics are not Jedi. When my Knight pointed out that the galaxy was not divided into Jedi and evil people, Satele Shan said "a Jedi does not compromise." Brrr.) Self Righteous Jerks with power inevitably do drastic amounts of damage. As a certain Ortolan on Hoth says, the Republic is crusading.
The fact that Jedi tear small children away from their families, do not allow the children any contact with said families, and tell the small children they must swear never to get attached to anyone or have sex when they cannot have a clue what they're swearing to give up makes them evil anyway. They force people to live lies: it's pretty clear that pretty much zero Jedi actually follow the "no attachment/no sex" part of the Jedi code. (Except possibly for the Emperor -- whom you find follows the Jedi Code, not the Sith Code, when you meet him as a Knight -- and the "bury me and my unconscious apprentice alive" guy in the Warrior quest. Though actually the second guy is attached to his apprentice, so nvm that.)
There's one line from an Imperial in the Knight quest that I think sums Jedi up pretty well. (This isn't an exact quote). "Typical Jedi: kill people and then apologize for it." Just like the walrus, they'll eat you alive, but they promise to cry afterward.
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Date: 2013-01-07 04:10 am (UTC)I didn't mean to suggest I was doubting that the Jedi are evil. _I_ haven't encountered it in game to the extent you have because I've played different classes. What I meant to communicate was "Hmm, well, that does change things."
(I went through the Foundry today. Holy crap. There's really no getting around that the Jedi, at a bare minimum, if not the leaders of the Republic had to know what Revan was planning. Yikes!)
Edit: It occurs to me that there's something wrong with any choice one has to justify. So I'm revising my opinion of the last choice on Nar Shaddaa - you're right, in that instance LS = LE. I still feel like most of the other LS choices for the Agent are some brand of good (or at least neutral). (And many of them are decidedly not lawful.)
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Date: 2013-01-07 10:32 pm (UTC)I often think Bioware's writers got their signals crossed. Usually Light Side seems to mean order and Dark Side means chaos. But then sometimes Light Side means good and Dark Side means evil. It feels rushed... which is a central trait of every single Bioware game I have ever played except Icewind Dale. It's too bad this is a MMORPG and therefore not fixable by modders.
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Date: 2013-01-07 11:43 pm (UTC)It's too bad the game isn't a little more consistent because parts of it are really amazing. And other parts of it are severely WTF. :\
I do think there are times when the game lets one get away with a little too much. It's not that I'd rather it were more cynical, but...I don't know... I suppose it's that even I'd have characters get into more trouble for some of the things the game just waves away, and I'm a super light and fluffy writer! (And, of course, the game can also fall hard on the cynical end of things and lean toward grimdark at times. One of those missing memos must have been about the seriousness/grimness/cynicalness of the work.)