They are both very unpleasant governments
Jan. 3rd, 2013 11:06 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lliiraThis poem has been going through my head for a very long time: ever since I learned what the Republic really is in SW:TOR. (Hint: it starts with "hugely genocidal" and doesn't get better from there.) For Walrus read: Republic. For Carpenter read: Empire.
'The sun was shining on the sea,
Shining with all his might:
He did his very best to make
The billows smooth and bright—
And this was odd, because it was
The middle of the night.
The moon was shining sulkily,
Because she thought the sun
Had got no business to be there
After the day was done—
"It's very rude of him," she said,
"To come and spoil the fun!"
The sea was wet as wet could be,
The sands were dry as dry.
You could not see a cloud, because
No cloud was in the sky:
No birds were flying over head—
There were no birds to fly.
The Walrus and the Carpenter
Were walking close at hand;
They wept like anything to see
Such quantities of sand:
"If this were only cleared away,"
They said, "it WOULD be grand!"
"If seven maids with seven mops
Swept it for half a year,
Do you suppose," the Walrus said,
"That they could get it clear?"
"I doubt it," said the Carpenter,
And shed a bitter tear.
"O Oysters, come and walk with us!"
The Walrus did beseech.
"A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk,
Along the briny beach:
We cannot do with more than four,
To give a hand to each."
The eldest Oyster looked at him.
But never a word he said:
The eldest Oyster winked his eye,
And shook his heavy head—
Meaning to say he did not choose
To leave the oyster-bed.
But four young oysters hurried up,
All eager for the treat:
Their coats were brushed, their faces washed,
Their shoes were clean and neat—
And this was odd, because, you know,
They hadn't any feet.
Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more—
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore.
The Walrus and the Carpenter
Walked on a mile or so,
And then they rested on a rock
Conveniently low:
And all the little Oysters stood
And waited in a row.
"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
Of cabbages—and kings—
And why the sea is boiling hot—
And whether pigs have wings."
"But wait a bit," the Oysters cried,
"Before we have our chat;
For some of us are out of breath,
And all of us are fat!"
"No hurry!" said the Carpenter.
They thanked him much for that.
"A loaf of bread," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
Pepper and vinegar besides
Are very good indeed—
Now if you're ready Oysters dear,
We can begin to feed."
"But not on us!" the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue,
"After such kindness, that would be
A dismal thing to do!"
"The night is fine," the Walrus said
"Do you admire the view?
"It was so kind of you to come!
And you are very nice!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Cut us another slice:
I wish you were not quite so deaf—
I've had to ask you twice!"
"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To play them such a trick,
After we've brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"The butter's spread too thick!"
"I weep for you," the Walrus said.
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size.
Holding his pocket handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.
"O Oysters," said the Carpenter.
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?"
But answer came there none—
And that was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.'
'I like the Walrus best,' said Alice: 'because you see he was a LITTLE sorry for the poor oysters.'
'He ate more than the Carpenter, though,' said Tweedledee. 'You see he held his handkerchief in front, so that the Carpenter couldn't count how many he took: contrariwise.'
'That was mean!' Alice said indignantly. 'Then I like the Carpenter best—if he didn't eat so many as the Walrus.'
'But he ate as many as he could get,' said Tweedledum.
This was a puzzler. After a pause, Alice began, 'Well! They were BOTH very unpleasant characters—'
'The sun was shining on the sea,
Shining with all his might:
He did his very best to make
The billows smooth and bright—
And this was odd, because it was
The middle of the night.
The moon was shining sulkily,
Because she thought the sun
Had got no business to be there
After the day was done—
"It's very rude of him," she said,
"To come and spoil the fun!"
The sea was wet as wet could be,
The sands were dry as dry.
You could not see a cloud, because
No cloud was in the sky:
No birds were flying over head—
There were no birds to fly.
The Walrus and the Carpenter
Were walking close at hand;
They wept like anything to see
Such quantities of sand:
"If this were only cleared away,"
They said, "it WOULD be grand!"
"If seven maids with seven mops
Swept it for half a year,
Do you suppose," the Walrus said,
"That they could get it clear?"
"I doubt it," said the Carpenter,
And shed a bitter tear.
"O Oysters, come and walk with us!"
The Walrus did beseech.
"A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk,
Along the briny beach:
We cannot do with more than four,
To give a hand to each."
The eldest Oyster looked at him.
But never a word he said:
The eldest Oyster winked his eye,
And shook his heavy head—
Meaning to say he did not choose
To leave the oyster-bed.
But four young oysters hurried up,
All eager for the treat:
Their coats were brushed, their faces washed,
Their shoes were clean and neat—
And this was odd, because, you know,
They hadn't any feet.
Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more—
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore.
The Walrus and the Carpenter
Walked on a mile or so,
And then they rested on a rock
Conveniently low:
And all the little Oysters stood
And waited in a row.
"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
Of cabbages—and kings—
And why the sea is boiling hot—
And whether pigs have wings."
"But wait a bit," the Oysters cried,
"Before we have our chat;
For some of us are out of breath,
And all of us are fat!"
"No hurry!" said the Carpenter.
They thanked him much for that.
"A loaf of bread," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
Pepper and vinegar besides
Are very good indeed—
Now if you're ready Oysters dear,
We can begin to feed."
"But not on us!" the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue,
"After such kindness, that would be
A dismal thing to do!"
"The night is fine," the Walrus said
"Do you admire the view?
"It was so kind of you to come!
And you are very nice!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Cut us another slice:
I wish you were not quite so deaf—
I've had to ask you twice!"
"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To play them such a trick,
After we've brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"The butter's spread too thick!"
"I weep for you," the Walrus said.
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size.
Holding his pocket handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.
"O Oysters," said the Carpenter.
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?"
But answer came there none—
And that was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.'
'I like the Walrus best,' said Alice: 'because you see he was a LITTLE sorry for the poor oysters.'
'He ate more than the Carpenter, though,' said Tweedledee. 'You see he held his handkerchief in front, so that the Carpenter couldn't count how many he took: contrariwise.'
'That was mean!' Alice said indignantly. 'Then I like the Carpenter best—if he didn't eat so many as the Walrus.'
'But he ate as many as he could get,' said Tweedledum.
This was a puzzler. After a pause, Alice began, 'Well! They were BOTH very unpleasant characters—'
no subject
Date: 2013-01-05 04:13 pm (UTC)My Sith Sith seems to mostly have the same dialogue options as humans, however. And he certainly never had to act like he was prejudiced against non-human non-Sith. Let's see, after Chapter One, so Taris (the only option you have to not fight the Republic Cathar--and Republic in general--is to decline the quests; you can't say it's great that the nekghouls are training as Jedi, but you can certainly recruit them rather than wiping them out, and everyone but the humorously vicious and incompetent Thana Vesh is pleased if you do), Quesh (...is it somehow bad to fight the Republic and Republic-aligned Hutts?), Hoth (again everything there is against the Republic, and unlike Taris it's "This is a Chiss world and the Republic is unwelcome," rather than, "That jawless idiot Malak decreed this world will become a ruin and so it must stay one!"), Belsavis (very morally awkward world...for the Republic. Marvelous for Imperials who care about morality at all), Voss (again, I'm not sure what you're talking about--yes, Darth Serevin isn't interested in the truth, but that doesn't mean you have to not be, and the Republic respects the Voss even less than Serevin does), and Corellia (which the Empire is trying to conquer, and, yes, if you take the non-class missions it assumes you are too). The difference is that starting somewhere in Chapter Two the Republic and the Empire are openly at war.
Is your objection that you can't act like the Republic isn't at war with you? Because as far as the non-class missions go that's all I can figure out for "choose good over orders." On Hoth if you rescue the Ortolan engineer from the Republic rather than choosing the "we just need the reactor, not you" option, the mission-giver's reaction is, "Oh good, I was hoping they'd stay on." Or that you have to deal with mission-givers who are open racists, even though you don't have to be one?
no subject
Date: 2013-01-05 07:58 pm (UTC)There are a few quests later on - I remember one on Belsavis - where the dialogue options were various flavors of "yes, lets manipulate these things to our ends" (paraphrase, obviously) which... um... why am I suddenly speciesist? (And it doesn't make sense as a class-flavoring, as the Agent never has to be speciesist in story. So it must be that I'm playing a human. Or someone misread a memo somewhere.)
Balmorra actually makes a great example planet for what I'm talking about, since the planet quests should be spoiler safe for everyone here. (I'll spoiler just in case, though.) Sure, you're trying to put down the Balmorran resistence, but you have the option to not report that there's a cave of weak Force sensitives (who would be slaughtered) so that they can go live out their lives in peace elsewhere (fairly certain that's treason - it's certainly massively disobeying orders, but it really has no relevance to the fighting), you have the option to rig grenades rather than coms (keeping casualties to the actual fighting forces, not spreading them to civilians as ordered) - which, granted, makes your character a bit of an idiot for not reporting the change of plan (you probably deserve to be flogged along with your co-conspirator for risking your own side's troops), and you can point out that maybe trying to win over Balmorran hearts and minds would be a good idea. A balancing act between agreeing (or at least not disagreeing with the Empire taking over Balmorra, while still having an interest in saving lives and not committing war crimes. This stance seems to...not quite vanish, but certainly become less of an option...as the Empire becomes more bloodthirsty, which is kinda odd.
I think I'd mentally lumped Hoth in with Chapter One (how, I don't know) when I was thinking about the characterization change, because, you're right, Hoth fits with Chapter One. Quesh mostly does (except for being rather more ruthless in cutscene with the Jedi working with the Hutts than you may be elsewhere). It's Taris - land of the rakghoul schmuckbait field* - that's most off in Chapter Two. The whole business with The Jedi training rakghouls is off - okay, obviously, you can't defect when offered, but howabout a "no, why don't you defect" option or a "why are you asking me this in front of Thana????" option. And the LS option goes rather dark.
I mean, if you're meant to know that the Republic wants to wipe the Empire out, it makes a bit more sense, but... the Agent class quests at least don't suggest that knowledge. It may seems less inconsistently written on a Sith. (Actually from what you've both said, it clearly does. After all, as Sith, you're aiming to remake the Empire however you wish - or so I gather.)
Of course, after Belasavis, your dedication to your side is pretty hard to understand on a Republic character, too. I just feel a bit hampered in playing good - regardless of faction. (Except in class quests. There good is no problem at all. ... Okay, a large part of my problem may be the title of the OP. It's hard not to feel that all good characters would be a bit "screw you all, you all suck!" by the end.)
One question re Voss: You say that the Republic is even less respectful of the Voss than Serevin... I... Did not get that impression. (Maybe I was distracted by wishing my Smuggler could have a one night stand with the Republic Ambassador. ^_^;;) The Ambassador seemed to like the Voss and to respect their decission to work on their own problem just fine. Is this another odd class/planet interaction (different dialogues on a Jedi, perhaps) or was I/my character really distracted by the hotness? *sheepish*
*Is it just me or does that planet make common sense go out the window on both sides? The Republic wanting to rebuild doesn't make that much sense (Wouldn't resources be better used elsewhere, especially with all the damage from the recent war? I know it's a PR stunt and all, but it seems a bit...unwise.) and it actually doesn't seem like a good planet for open warfare Empire side - send a few sabotures and let the planet do the rest, especially since the Empire doesn't want the planet.
no subject
Date: 2013-01-05 08:46 pm (UTC)That's very odd. More so that it's not the case for a Sith (race, not class).
(I usually have the option to agree with racist lines, but I always have the option to protest them.)
No, the ambassador is fine. And, if you're playing a Jedi, he and the Sith Lord who's been training the failed mystics in how to use the Force both poke at you a lot about the Jedi's contemptuous attitude toward the Voss. (I wonder how the whole thing plays out for a non-Jedi; it doesn't really make a lot of sense that a Republic soldier or privateer can verbally commit the Jedi to training the Voss.) When you confront the Sith Lord, he tells you the Sith are willing to train the Voss; one of the Voss students asks if they have an alternative. Your choices are to say "The Jedi are just waiting for you to ask" or, "That's not an option." The first choice is Light Side. The first choice is also a lie, and you get "What were you thinking? Now we're stuck training these Voss who don't believe in the Light Side and the Dark Side!" from the Jedi Council and, "Wow, I didn't think you were actually going to do that" from the ambassador if you choose it.
And yes, Taris seems to be entirely an ego thing for both sides. Both the Empire and the Republic are going by an utterly false narrative where Taris was once one of the greatest planets in the Republic and crushing it was a great Empire victory.
no subject
Date: 2013-01-06 01:24 am (UTC)The suddenly!Racist moments baffle me, too. I'm going to go with somebody misread a memo somewhere, because they don't make much sense otherwise.